those events are allowed the office of science and technology policy to identify work apps are. you can discuss value in a couple different ways. primarily whether it is valuable to democracy and people holding the government accountable, or valuable to companies such as members of my coalition of want to use it for new business opportunities or both. our coalition focuses on both vote for democracy and business opportunities are still not disclosed or standardized. although there is incremental progress without a legislative agenda, i think the white house can't get there. >> this is good and that leads us to the causal part of the program of the convening, perhaps. so we were talking about institutionalization. we have seen efforts along those lines. the open government initiative and direct it, although it certainly hasn't -- it's translated into something to get agencies moving in the same direction. we saw more of the principle problem with the leadership is saying do this and agencies were saying no, no. it was the mid-level folks. some of this is perhaps a one point ethic